Ibrahim Ali : `I talk about hypocrisy'

He ran under the Pas flag at the last general election, now sits as an independent in Parliament, speaks his mind, and criticises anyone he so chooses. But, now, Pas has asked him to resign as a member of parliament, re-contest and win under his own banner. ANIZA DAMIS speaks to Pasir Mas MP Datuk Ibrahim Ali, and learns that the man is just a misunderstood frog.

Q: Pas has asked you to resign from being a member of parliament. You refuse. Why?

A: I see no reason for me to resign. I was shocked when he (Pas spiritual adviser Datuk Nik Abdul Aziz Nik Mat) asked me to resign. I was elected by the voters, so why should I resign?Secondly, I'm an independent MP. I'm not a Pas member. True, I used the Pas symbol at the last elections. But as far as I'm concerned, it was a political cooperation for the election. After the election, for almost one year I was sitting as an independent; I was called an independent, and there was no objection (from Pas), so I consider myself independent. As an independent, I can say whatever I want. When talking about opinion or truth, there is no compromise for me on this point. I thought Pas was a very open-minded party – you are free to talk, say anything, give your opinion – because they always accuse Umno of being a party that cannot be advised, or criticised by their members. In any case, I never criticised them directly. I criticised other parties or other leaders, so why did they feel hurt?

Q: Why did you run under Pas? Could you have afforded to run on your own?

A: I couldn't. Because as far as Kelantan is concerned, people only know Umno and Pas. It's seldom that an independent can win on his own. So, we established a cooperation based on a win-win situation. In the 2004 elections, Pas only had a two-seat majority. And even then, because I ran as an independent candidate, my supporters supported and voted for Pas. So, they won by two seats, and saved the state government. In 2008, they were worried. Pas was not sure of its position and whether they could hold on to the state government or not. So, that's why they needed me. At that time, they didn't care whether I was Pas member or not, they just wanted my cooperation. So, they used me. And I, too, as a politician and fighter, needed help; I needed a platform. So, it was a mutual cooperation. Of course, if Pas had known they were going to win big at the last general election, I doubt they would have given me that seat! So, it's not a question of whether they owe me or I owe them. If you want to talk about owing, between me and Pas, we have settled our debts. And even though in that election I used their symbol, which they offered to me, all the expenses were borne by me. I paid for the deposit myself. I didn't take a single sen of their money. And I had my own election machinery.

Q: Then why use the Pas flag at all?

A: If I used my own symbol I'd have to print my own posters. I won because of Pas, and Pas won because of me. I know I'm not that strong, but we both contributed to each other.

Q: If Pas had put a Pas candidate in competition with you, who would have won?
A: I can't say. In 2004, when I stood as an independent as a parliamentary candidate, I scored almost 7,000 votes. I thought, if I could have 7,000 votes in 2004, then if I can get 12,000 votes, I can win. It's a matter of another 5,000 votes. Looking at the majority I got at the last election, if there were a three-cornered fight in 2008, I think the votes would have been close. Who would have won I cannot guess, but it would've been neck-and-neck, and by a small majority.

Q: When you made the deal with Pas to use their symbol, did they ask you for anything?
A: No, nothing. Their members and leaders also said, “After we retain the state government, it's up to Tok Heng (Datuk Ibrahim) where he wants to go.” Because they know me. Bear in mind, in 1988, when Umno was declared unlawful, I was with Semangat 46. I contested under the S46 banner, and S46 also cooperated with Pas, the same way that Keadilan is cooperating with Pas now. When I won the election running as a S46 candidate in 1990, one year after that I returned to Umno. They know my history, so they should be cautious about that!

Q: They didn't place any conditions against you crossing back to Umno?

A: Nothing at all.

Q: Why would they do that?

A: Because they were not sure whether they could win the 2008 elections or not. So, they thought that, if they use me, my minority supporters in Pasir Mas would go to them, then they would win. Which is why they now cooperate with Indians and the DAP, because they need votes. The way democracy works in Malaysia now, the majority doesn't count anymore. It's the minority that makes the winner. So, in a particular constituency, if Pas has 40 per cent support, Umno has 40 per cent support, who holds the remainder 20 per cent? In some cases, it's the Indians and Chinese. In my area, it's me that holds that number! They knew that.

Q: Because Pas supported you, the majority of their supporters voted for you. So, even though there was no overt request, are you sure there was no implied expectation?

A: Well, during the campaign, during which I contributed to speeches all over the country, I kept telling people – in front of the Pas leaders – “I'm an outspoken man. Even though now I'm with Pas, after the election, I will criticise everybody.” And they heard what I said and clapped said, they clapped and cheered. So, why do they now make noise about it?

Q: Do you think it's unreasonable for Pas to ask you to resign?

A: Yes. They know I'm not going to resign, but I think they want to demoralise me, so that whatever I say in Parliament will have lit tle impact, since Pas has rejected me. Pas knows that by resigning I wouldn't be able to contest for five years, yet they asked me to resign and test how strong I truly am. But how am I to resign and re-contest when there's a law there which bars me from contesting? So, if I resign, I can't even con test in the next election. They know that. When the (Bukit Lanjan assemblywoman) Elizabeth Wong issue cropped up, they said she should not resign, because it would be a waste of money (to have by-elections). And then, they asked me to resign – for no reason! In Perak, they want the assembly to be dissolved. Whatever suits their interests, they will just talk. Even though it's a contradiction. They've said that any leader charged with anything in court should resign, even though the corruption is just a perception. But now when it comes to their own people, like when the Malaysian Anti-Corruption Commission chief commissioner said there was a case to be made against (Selangor Menteri Besar Tan Sri) Khalid Ibrahim, Khalid didn't resign, and they never pressured this fellow to resign.

Q: But Khalid hasn't been charged yet.
A: Correct. But, they said before, even the leaders who have not yet been investigated, who have only the perception of corruption, should resign. If it's the other side, like if the culprit is from Umno, then they say that person should resign. But at least within Umno, even though the person hasn't been charged in court, the person is asked to resign the party position. I'm not defending Umno. I'm just telling the truth, that's all. We have a problem in this country now. The public now has formed their own mindset. This is dangerous. If you are moving towards a civil society where they form the opinion that this leader is a bad leader, or this leader is a corrupt leader, even though the court has an opposing verdict, this is a very dangerous thing for the country. Because the law is not important anymore. People start believing that people are caught or charged only because of their political affiliation, and not the crime committed. This also happens because the public see there are people who should have been charged in court, but ere not. This is where the accusation of “selective prosecution” arises. So, because of one or two cases where a person should have been charged and was not charged, it affects the morale and perception, and the public's opinion. This is what I try to correct. That's why, when I spoke in Parliament, talking aboutI talked about hypocrisy from the perspective of double standards. Whether they are with the government or opposition, wrong is wrong. But now it seems that, wrong to the opposition is only for BN people. And the same goes with BN. It's become difficult to know what is the real truth. People shouldn't care about the party. If there are Umno leaders who are good, then that's a good thing. If there are opposition leaders who are good, then that's a good thing, too. And if they are wrong, then that's wrong. But now everything is getting confused, because of this hypocrisy. Both sides have become hypocrites.

Q: The majority of the people voted for you because they voted for Pas. Now Pas claims you are not supporting them. Do you think you're betraying your constituents by not supporting Pas?
A: No. Because all the while, even during the election campaign itself, the voters know that I'm not a Pas member. And the voters also know that I'm only cooperating with Pas.

Q: And what does “cooperate” mean?

A: Cooperate means to work together during the election. After the election, you can go wherever you'd like to go. For example, Tengku Razaleigh and Razaleigh (Hamzah) and the S46 gang, who were voted in the elections in 1990 and 1995, had also cooperated with Pas in the elections. Then they dissolved the party and joined Umno. Don't you call that betraying? So, why is it only me (who betrays)? The whole world knows I'm not a Pas member. The whole world knows I'm cooperating with Pas only during the election. I said that during the election many times. It's been one year already, so why are they only bringing this up now? Just because when I talk, I criticise somebody, and somebody feels hurt because of my speech, they say I'm not berbudi (grateful).

Q: Nik Aziz says if a cow can be tied up, what more a human...

A: A cow has to be restrained because a cow isn't intelligent. Cows don't have brains, so if you don't tether it, it will make trouble and this will be dangerous to the public. Cows that are not tethered go onto the roads and defecate there. Some cows have horns and are fierce and can hurt people. But humans have brains (intelligence). So, humans can think. That's why God made us untethered. If humans are tethered, we would become cows. And we are obviously not cows. I'm not a cow. I'm a man who has a brain with which to think. And I'm not stupid.
Q: If you were to resign and not be a member of parliament, do you think it would be a loss to the people and the country?

A: No, I'm a small man. Even when I was not in Parliament, the country survived. I know who I am. I'm not indispensable. The only thing is, if I'm around, I can contribute, and my contribution might be better than that of others. But if I'm not around, the country can survive without me. People only like to use me when they are in trouble. But when they are not in trouble, people don't like me. I have become an institution in Pasir Mas. Because for so long I've been serving my constituency and people there since the 1970s when I was a student leader. As far as khidmat (service) is concerned, you can go to Pasir Mas and you tell me if you can get any complaints. It's not easy to maintain a good record for 20-25 years, but I've done it. There are leaders who are wakil rakyat for just one term, and already they get criticism. Of course, if I contested in a three-cornered fight, I don't think I can win. But, wherever I go and join a group, that group will win. For example, when I join Pas, of course I benefit a little bit, but they benefit more. But if I go with another group, that other group will win. You can see the numbers of votes, you can do the computer assimilation according to the last few in the last few elections since 1986. The record speaks for itself.

Q: Do you plan to cross over to Umno?

A: Actually, I'm in a difficult position. You see, when Pas does this to me, Umno is so kind by welcoming me back to Umno. Because I'm a former Umno man, and they see in me that I love Umno. Of course I love Umno, because it's my former party.

Q: But you've had a lot of parties...

A: Let me put the record straight. Crossing parties is me. But there are a lot of other leaders who have been crossing parties before me. But people look (only) at me. I started in politics in 1978. There was a crisis in Kelantan at that time. After 1978, Berjasa was formed and they were going to have state elections, and they asked me to run under Berjasa. The party at that time was already cooperating with BN. Then after that, I joined Umno. Why should I stay with Berjasa? It was too small a party, and it had already adopted the BN policy. When you adopt the BN policy, that means that you adopt the Umno policy. And if you've done that, then you might as well join a bigger party than a small party. So, I joined Umno. When I joined Umno, I was so loyal to Umno until in 1988, Umno was declared unlawful. When Umno was declared unlawful, I didn't go back to the new Umno (when Umno was re-registered); I joined Semangat 46. This was because Umno Baru's constitution was different from the old Umno. And Tengku Razaleigh Hamzah formed S46 to retain the old Umno. I wanted to stay with the old Umno, so I joined S46. Then, after the 1990 election, it was like now – they said, “You should be thankful, you should stay with S46 and Tengku Raza leigh”, who is my mentor. But after the election, I was among the first to go back to Umno. I left Tengku Razaleigh for the sake of Malay unity. That's my sacrifice; not that I don't like Pas, or that I don't like Tengku Razaleigh. As they say, “Not that I love Ceasar less, but I love Rome more.” So I rejoined back Umno, for very positive reasons. But everybody hammered me. Then, in 2003, I was dropped as the protem division chief. But I was the most outspoken in Umno, defending the party every where – explaining the case of (sacked deputy prime minister) Anwar (Ibrahim). Nobody went around the country like me. Other people who had been dropped or sacked went through the party disciplinary board, but I was not called. So, of course, I had to defend my honour and that of my family. That's why I contested against Umno. And I was kicked out. I'm not saying that I'm correct. But other people cross parties because of self interest. But not me! I was in a different party because of the circumstances. I want to put the record straight. There are so many who are worse than me: Anwar Ibrahim left Umno because he was sacked. So why are people putting all the bad things on me?

Q: Ultimately, to whom or what are you loyal?

A: To God.

Q: And what does that mean?

A: It means that wherever I am (whichever party I'm with) I will follow that party's policy, but if something is not right, I will criticise it. When you're loyal to God, whatever you do, you must always be mindful of God. Kamaruddin Jaafar was the Tumpat division chief in Umno. But now he's the Pas secretary-general. Doesn't that make him a frog? Saifuddin Nasution was a Pas member before, and then he joined Umno, and then joined Keadilan. Azmin Ali used to be with Umno. So, why me? Even the Speaker, Tan Sri Pandikar Amin Mulia (is one). When people accused me in the Dewan of being a frog, I said, “ I would like to ask the speaker, were you not originally from Upko? And then Usno? And then Berjaya? And then PBS? And then Umno?” To each, he said, “That's right.” So, I said, “Then, you are the father of all frogs!” (laughs) It was reported in the papers. I started from Berjasa. They didn't have a youth leader, so they came to me. I told them I didn't want to join Berjasa as I wanted to enter Umno. They said, “Just for a while. We want to use you for a short while.” I was made use of! That's why after that I joined Umno. I've been used by people all the time. But now no more. No more.

Q: Do you find the term “frog” offensive?

A: No. Because there are too many frogs in the country. (laughs) But I consider myself a good frog!

Q: What's the difference?

A: I've been pushed to jump because of circumstances, not because of personal interest. But other frogs jump because of political interest. You've got to see their record. Bear in mind there are other people who change parties more than me.

Q: As we have seen in the Perak assembly crisis, most MPs and assemblymen are made to sign undated resignation letters. As an independent, did you have to sign anything with anyone?
A: No. As far as I'm concerned, I didn't sign anything. And even if I had signed such a thing, it would have been invalid. This is a debatable issue, actually. When you contest, people say it's under the party's name. The party is represented by a symbol. This symbol was introduced because at that time, in the early days of elections, people were illiterate. So, they have to introduce the symbol to help the voters. But, when you are voted in, you are voted in as a person, even though you belong to a party. But how are you to be a good parliamentarian if, when you come to Parliament you are tied (to the party). You should speak according to your conscience. That's what is called “the people's representative”. We should at least allow MPs to speak freely, because the party's interests should only be during voting. I agree that members should follow the party Whip, but during the debate they should be free to speak according to their conscience. This is what I'm fighting for, and what I do in Parliament. I speak my conscience.

photo courtesy of bro jinggo.

tunku : i hope tok heng(ibrahim ali) will remain independent.he is doing a good job as independent and acts as an independent without favouring anyone. in the next GE hope that pasir mas will vote again for him and make him as their representative again.i have high regards for him when i think back of his efforts going around the country explaining to people about anwar sodomy activities after he was sacked from the goverment, defending the party.he was the man then.he was sacked from umno by pak lah for his outspoken habits.he was not given a chance to defend himself. what a good act by pak lah.